KRISTEN WELKER:
This Sunday, Biden's red line. President Biden warns Israel he will cut off some American weapons if the Israeli military launches a full-scale assault inside the city of Rafah where more than one million Palestinians are sheltering.
PRES. JOE BIDEN:
If they go into Rafah, I'm not supplying the weapons that have been used historically to deal with Rafah.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Israel defiant, saying they are willing to fight without U.S. help.
BENJAMIN NETANYAHU:
If Israel has to stand alone, we'll stand alone.
SEN LINDSEY GRAHAM:
Give Israel what they need to fight the war they can’t afford to lose.
SEN. BERNIE SANDERS:
The American people want an immediate cease fire and they do not want more U.S. military aid going to the war machine.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Is the relationship between the U.S. and Israel at a crisis point? My guests this morning Secretary of State Antony Blinken, Republican Senator Lindsey Graham of South Carolina and independent Senator Bernie Sanders of Vermont. Plus, legal storm. After ruling Donald Trump violated a gag order 10 times, the judge presiding over Trump's criminal trial threatens jail time if he violates the gag order again.
FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:
If you say anything slightly off, he wants to put you in jail.
KRISTEN WELKER:
And after Stormy Daniels takes the stand describing her sexual encounter with Mr. Trump, the judge rejects the defense team's request for a mistrial. Joining me for insight and analysis are NBC News White House Correspondent Monica Alba, former White House Press Secretary Jen Psaki and Stephen Hayes, editor of the Dispatch. Welcome to Sunday. It’s Meet the Press
ANNOUNCER:
From NBC News in Washington, the longest-running show in television history, this is Meet the Press with Kristen Welker.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Good Sunday morning and Happy Mother's Day. Today, the world’s eyes are on Gaza, as the Israeli military widens operations, including ordering more evacuations from parts of Rafah, a densely-populated area in southern Gaza, despite President Biden’s stark warning that he’ll withhold weapons if they launch a major operation. The U.N. says 300,000 people have fled rafah over the last week. Now last week, the White House halted a large shipment of 2,000 and 500 pound bombs to Israel. And on Wednesday, President Biden warned the pause could extend to more weapons, even though the administration continues to send smaller arms. It's the president’s greatest break yet with the Israeli government. And Mr. Biden made a striking admission that bombs supplied by the U.S. have killed civilians in Gaza.
[START TAPE]
PRES. JOE BIDEN:
Civilians have been killed in Gaza as a consequence of those bombs and other ways in which they go after population centers. I’ve made it clear that if they go into Rafah – they haven't gone into Rafah yet – if they go into Rafah I'm not supplying the weapons that have been used historically to deal with Rafah, to deal with the cities.
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
It's a notable evolution from the way the president talked about civilian deaths back in October.
[START TAPE]
REPORTER:
The Hamas-controlled Gaza Health Ministry says Israeli forces have killed over 6,000 Palestinians, including 2,700 children. You’ve previously asked Netanyahu to minimize civilian casualties. Do these numbers say to you that he is ignoring that message?
PRES. JOE BIDEN:
What they say to me is I have no notion that the Palestinians are telling the truth about how many people are killed. I’m sure innocents have been killed, and it’s the price of waging a war. I think we should be incredibly careful, not we - the Israelis should be incredibly careful. But I have no confidence in the number the Palestinians are using.
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
On Friday, the state department released a report criticizing Israel for failing to protect civilians in Gaza, saying “the results on the ground, including high levels of civilian casualties, raise substantial questions." The report says it is "reasonable to assess" that Israel has violated international law in Gaza, but said the U.S. hasn’t been able to verify instances that would justify withholding military aid. That finding allows the U.S. to continue supplying weapons to Israel. responding to President Biden, Israeli Prime Minister Netanyahu said Israel is prepared to "go it alone.”
[START TAPE]
BENJAMIN NETANYAHU:
I've known Joe Biden for many years, 40 years or more. We've often had agreements but we've had our disagreements. We've been able to overcome them. I hope we can overcome them now, but we will do what we have to do to protect our country. And that means protect our future. And that means we will defeat Hamas, including in Rafah. We have no other choice.
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
And joining me now is Secretary of State Antony Blinken. Secretary Blinken, welcome back to Meet the Press.
SEC. ANTONY BLINKEN:
Morning, Kristen.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Thank you so much for being here. I want to start with that State Department report that did not draw a definitive conclusion about Israel, whether it's violated international law. Amnesty International says of the report, this is the, quote, "international version of sending ‘thoughts and prayers.’" Democratic Senator Chris Van Hollen says it “ducks the ultimate questions that the report was designed to determine." Mr. Secretary, is the U.S. trying to avoid holding Israel accountable for its actions?
SEC. ANTONY BLINKEN:
No. We don't have double standards. We treat Israel, one of our closest allies and partners, just as we would treat any other country, including in assessing something like international humanitarian law and its compliance with that – with that law. I would invite people to read the report. They can see for themselves everything that we've laid out in the report. The report also makes clear that this is an incredibly complex military environment. You have an enemy that intentionally embeds itself with civilians, hiding under and within schools, mosques, apartment buildings, firing at the Israeli forces from those places. It's very, very difficult in the heat of war to make a definitive assessment about any individual incident. But what the report concludes is that, based on the totality of the harm that's been done to children, to women, to men who are caught in this crossfire of Hamas' making, it's reasonable to conclude that there are instances where Israel has acted in ways that are not consistent with international humanitarian law. At the same time, Kristen, we continue to look at, investigate each of these incidents. But, critically, so does Israel. There are hundreds, as we understand it, of open inquiries into particular incidents that have taken place since October 7th. There are criminal investigations that are going forward. Israel, unlike many other countries, has both the means and the will to try to police itself. So, we need to let those play out. But our own process, that has been underway for many months, to look at individual incidents, that will continue as well. And when we can reach definitive conclusions, we will. But it's very difficult to do that in the midst of a war.
KRISTEN WELKER:
And I hear you saying how complex the situation is on the ground. But here we are in the seventh month of this war, Mr. Secretary. How is it possible that the State Department, with all of its resources, was not able to reach a definitive conclusion on this critical question of whether Israel has violated international law?
SEC. ANTONY BLINKEN:
Again, precisely because we continue to be in the midst of that war. And making these assessments in real time, when we don't have people on the ground, when we also have to make sure that we're getting information from all concerned, that takes time, and we want to make sure that we can reach definitive conclusions. But, as the report makes clear, given the totality of the damage that's been done to civilians, to children, to women, to men, given that, given the fact that Israel clearly has procedures, rules, regulations, laws that go into the targeting decisions they make, the way they conduct themselves, but the results that we've seen in terms of the horrible loss of life of innocent civilians, it's reasonable to assess, as we say in the report, that there are instances where they've acted inconsistent with their obligations under international humanitarian law. Those investigations continue, both by us and by Israel.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Let's zoom out a little bit and talk about U.S. policy. The U.S. has urged Israel not to invade Rafah, yet troops are already on the ground. And this weekend, we learned that over 300,000 people are being evacuated. President Biden threatened to withhold certain weapons if Netanyahu goes into Rafah in a full-scale invasion while, at the same time, sending in other weapons. Big picture: Why should Israel believe that the U.S. is willing to back up its threats?
SEC. ANTONY BLINKEN:
Well, first, let's step back for one minute. No one has done more to defend Israel when it mattered than President Biden. He was there in the days after October 7th, the first president to go to Israel in the midst of a conflict. When Iran mounted an unprecedented attack on Israel some weeks ago – 300 projectiles, including ballistic missiles, launched at Israel – the United States, for the first time ever, participated in its active defense. And President Biden brought together a coalition of countries that helped defend Israel. So, no one has done more than Joe Biden. At the same time, what we've seen over the last few months is a deep concern on our part about the possibility of a major military operation in Rafah, given the damage it would do to civilians. There are more than 1.4 million Gazans in Rafah, most of whom have moved from other parts of Gaza. Absent a credible plan to get them out of harm's way and to support them, the president's been clear for some time that we couldn't and would not support a major military operation in Rafah. Now, at the same time, we share Israel's objective of making sure that Hamas cannot govern Gaza anymore, that it be demilitarized, that Israel get its leaders. We continue to support that. But there's a better way of achieving that than going headlong into Rafah. That's what we're talking about with Israel now. We have a better way of doing it. We're engaged in conversations with them about that. But the president, answering a question, was very clear about where we are on Rafah itself and what we would do, or not do, in the event that they go with a major military operation.
KRISTEN WELKER:
I hear you saying you haven't seen a credible plan yet for how Israel would go into Rafah and mitigate civilian casualties. Is it fair to say that President Biden and Prime Minister Netanyahu are not seeing eye to eye right now?
SEC. ANTONY BLINKEN:
There are two things. One is that, as the president said and as we said in many conversations over the last couple of months, there has to be a credible plan for the civilians.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Have you seen a credible plan?
SEC. ANTONY BLINKEN:
We have to make sure – we have not. Second, there's something else that's important. We also haven't seen a plan for what happens the day after this war in Gaza ends. Because right now, the trajectory that Israel is on is, even if it goes in and takes heavy action in Rafah, there will still be thousands of armed Hamas left. We've seen in areas that Israel has cleared in the north, even in Khan Yunis, Hamas coming back. So, the trajectory right now is that going into Rafah, even to deal with these remaining battalions, especially in the absence of a plan for civilians, risks doing terrible harm to civilians and not solving the problem, a problem that both of us want to solve, which is making sure Hamas cannot, again, govern Gaza. Israel's on the trajectory, potentially, to inherit an insurgency with many armed Hamas left or, if it leaves, a vacuum filled by chaos, filled by anarchy, and probably refilled by Hamas. We've been talking to them about a much better way of getting an enduring result, enduring security –
KRISTEN WELKER:
Yeah.
SEC. ANTONY BLINKEN:
– both in Gaza itself and much more broadly in the region. Those conversations continue, and that's what partners, that's what allies do. We are clear-eyed, and we speak the truth to each other as we see it. We have American interests, first and foremost, in mind. We also have Israel's interests in mind –
KRISTEN WELKER:
Yeah.
SEC. ANTONY BLINKEN:
And there may be a difference in view in the best way to achieve them. But that's also the nature of the relationship.
KRISTEN WELKER:
I want to drill down with you on President Biden's threat to withhold weapons. What exactly is his red line, Mr. Secretary? What would trigger him to say, "I am now withholding weapons?"
SEC. ANTONY BLINKEN:
Look, we don't talk about red lines when it comes to Israel. We talk, again –
KRISTEN WELKER:
President Biden did talk about –
SEC. ANTONY BLINKEN:
– about –
KRISTEN WELKER:
– a red line, though, Mr. Secretary –
SEC. ANTONY BLINKEN:
So –
KRISTEN WELKER:
– respectfully –
SEC. ANTONY BLINKEN:
Yeah, let me be clear –
KRISTEN WELKER:
What would trigger him to make that decision?
SEC. ANTONY BLINKEN:
Sure. So, first, we have been holding back, and we're in active conversations with Israel about the provision of heavy or high-payload weapons, large bombs, because of the concern that we have about the effect these weapons can have when they're used in a dense urban environment like Rafah. We're discussing that with Israel right now. Second, what the president said is that if Israel goes in with a major military operation in Rafah, in that case, there are certain systems that we will not provide to Israel that would aid that effort, because it's something that we do not want to be part of, given the damage that it would do to civilians and, again, not to achieve a durable, lasting, effective result for Israel and for its security. That's what the president said. We've said that in conversations with our Israeli partners. It's unfortunate that that leaked out, but the president responded forthrightly to a question when he was asked about it.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Mr. Secretary, I want to ask you about the very latest on the deal to get the hostages released for a ceasefire. We know that the CIA director has since returned home. Did those talks fall apart because Prime Minister Netanyahu was threatening and is making moves to go into Rafah?
SEC. ANTONY BLINKEN:
Look, it's important, first of all, to remind ourselves that Hamas could have ended this on day one. Well, this never, of course, should have happened. There was actually a ceasefire before October 7th, on October 6th, that Hamas destroyed in the most barbaric way possible, humanly imaginable. But every day after that, Hamas could have decided to give up the hostages, stop hiding behind civilians, put down its weapons, and all of this would have been over. It still has that possibility. The quickest way for this to end is for Hamas to give up the hostages. We will get a ceasefire that we can build on and build to something more lasting and more durable. The different teams continue to talk. It remains our view that the fastest way to get to a ceasefire, the fastest way to get hostages home, is through an agreement. And we're determined every single day to pursue that and to try to get it to happen. I think you can question whether Hamas actually wants to get this. It would also be the best way to make sure that we can really surge humanitarian assistance and better protect civilians in Gaza. Hamas purports to be interested in that. Its actions certainly demonstrate the opposite.
KRISTEN WELKER:
All right. Secretary Blinken, thank you so much for your time this morning. We really appreciate it.
SEC. ANTONY BLINKEN:
Kristen, thank you.
KRISTEN WELKER:
When we come back, independent Senator Bernie Sanders of Vermont joins me next.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Welcome back. As tensions on college campuses mount, students protested the war in Gaza at commencement ceremonies across the country. On Saturday from Berkeley, California, to Chapel Hill, North Carolina, and Madison, Wisconsin. Dozens of students walked out of the Virginia Commonwealth University ceremony as Governor Glenn Youngkin delivered the commencement address there. Joining me now is the Independent senator from Vermont, Bernie Sanders. Senator Sanders, welcome back to Meet the Press.
SEN. BERNIE SANDERS:
Good to be with you.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Well, we appreciate your being here on a busy Sunday morning. I want to start with your reaction to that State Department report and what you just heard from the secretary of state who defended the report, the fact that there was no definitive conclusion drawn. He also said he has not seen a definitive plan from Israel to go into Rafah without mitigating civilian casualties. What was your takeaway, Senator?
SEN. BERNIE SANDERS:
Well, Kristen, I have a lot of respect for Tony Blinken. He has an impossibly difficult job. But the reality is, as I think any objective observer knows, Israel has broken international law. It has broken American law. And in my view, Israel should not be receiving another nickel in U.S. military aid. Look, the facts are quite clear. Hamas is a terrible, disgusting terrorist organization that began this war. But what Israel has done over the last seven months is not just gone to war against Hamas, it has gone to war against the entire Palestinian people. And the results have been absolutely catastrophic. I mean, Kristen, we're talking about not just 35,000 Palestinians dead and 77,000 wounded – two thirds of whom are women and children. That is not the way you conduct a war in a civilized society, to the degree that war is civilized. We're talking about 60% of the housing in Gaza having been destroyed. The civilian infrastructure – that's water, that is raw sewage – now running out into the streets. No electricity. You are talking about a systematic destruction of the health care system there. Every university in Gaza has been bombed. And right now, most frighteningly, according to the humanitarian organizations, we are looking at the likelihood of hundreds of thousands of children facing starvation. The Foreign Assistance Act is very, very clear – 6201, the provision – any entity, any state, any country that blocks U.S. humanitarian aid is in violation of law and should not continue to receive military aid from the United States. That is precisely what--
KRISTEN WELKER:
Senator--
SEN. BERNIE SANDERS:
--Israel has done.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Senator, let me just press you a bit. Because I hear you saying you believe Israel shouldn't receive another cent. And yet 26 House Democrats wrote a letter to the White House saying they are, quote, "deeply concerned about the message the administration is sending to Hamas and other Iranian-backed terrorist proxies." Does withholding weapons to Israel run the risk of prolonging this war and weakening Israel's hand against Hamas?
SEN. BERNIE SANDERS:
No. Well, I understand – look, every Republican as I understand it wants to give huge amounts of money to Israel. My guess is that many Republicans want Israel to go into Rafah despite the incredible humanitarian destruction that will cause. And there are Democrats who also feel that way. But this is what I will tell you, Kristen: That is not what the American people feel. Poll after poll suggests that the American people want an immediate cease fire. They want massive humanitarian aid to get in. People of our country do not want to be complicit in the starvation of hundreds of thousands of children. And by the way, when we talk about the international community, we are increasingly isolated in terms of our support for Israel, who is becoming a pariah nation.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Senator, I mean, is there a non-military way to get rid of Hamas given the threat that they pose, given that they say their very goal is to destroy Israel's existence?
SEN. BERNIE SANDERS:
You're right. You're absolutely right. That is exactly right. That is their goal. It is difficult. I don't want to minimize this. So, the goal is to defeat Hamas, but not to destroy or cause the enormous amount of destruction that we're now seeing in Gaza. And I hope that the future for the Palestinian people is a new generation of Palestinian leaders, who focus on allowing the people to have a state of their own. We got to support a two-state solution, improving the economy, rebuilding the economy. That's the long-term goal.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Senator, I have to ask you about some comments you made this week saying that the Middle East, the Israel-Hamas war could be Biden's Vietnam, arguing, politically speaking, this could cost him the election. In the wake of Biden's new warning to Israel, do you stand by those comments, or do you think that the landscape has now changed?
SEN. BERNIE SANDERS:
Well, I certainly support the president saying that it is absurd to provide Israel with 2,000-pound bombs that could level an entire square block in the midst of Rafah which is an incredibly densely populated area. So, the president is clearly right. What I worry about is that this war in Gaza right now is not only strongly opposed by young people, but a whole lot of people in the Democratic base.
KRISTEN WELKER:
So you still think this--
SEN. BERNIE SANDERS:
Look, Kristen, I am strongly supporting the--
KRISTEN WELKER:
Do you still think this could be his Vietnam?
SEN. BERNIE SANDERS:
Look, I am strongly supporting the president because on many domestic issues he has done an excellent job. But I think there are a lot of people in the Democratic base who are concerned about his support for Israel in this war.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Senator, very quickly, you have talked about and you announced this week that you are running for re-election. Of course, this comes – you are 82 years old. I don't have to tell you this. But age is obviously a big issue in the presidential election. Are you concerned that age could be a political liability for you?
SEN. BERNIE SANDERS:
Well, look, I think age is a factor. Experience is a factor. Accomplishment is a factor. And most importantly, a factor in politics is: What do you believe in? And I would hope that the people of Vermont and the people of the United States look at candidates in their totality. But I should also tell you I would not have run – announced reelection – my intention to seek re-election unless I felt pretty good. With the exception of a week off for COVID, I've not missed a day of work in the last three years. I'm feeling pretty good.
KRISTEN WELKER:
That is what your staff says, that you never take a vacation. We're almost out of time. Let me try one more time. Just yes or no: Do you still think that the Israel-Hamas war runs the risk of potentially being Biden's Vietnam?
SEN. BERNIE SANDERS:
I think--
KRISTEN WELKER:
Just a yes or a no.
SEN. BERNIE SANDERS:
--that a lot of people are very disappointed. Well, it's hurting him politically. Yes, of course it is.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Okay. There you have it. Senator, Bernie Sanders, thank you so much for joining me this morning. I really appreciate the conversation. And when we come back, Republican senator Lindsey Graham of South Carolina joins me next.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Welcome back. Senate Republicans are criticizing President Biden for pausing the delivery of high payload bombs to Israel. At a Wednesday hearing on the Defense Department budget, South Carolina Senator Lindsey Graham grilled Pentagon leaders.
[START TAPE]
SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM:
If we stop weapons necessary to destroy the enemies of the state of Israel at a time of great peril, we will pay a price. This is obscene. It is absurd. Give Israel what they need to fight the war they can't afford to lose. This is Hiroshima and Nagasaki on steroids.
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
And Senator Lindsey Graham joins me now. Senator Graham, welcome back to Meet the Press.
SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM:
Happy Mother's Day.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Thank you, Senator. I appreciate that very much. Look, you have been quite clear, as we just heard there, that you are opposed to President Biden's –
SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM:
Yeah –
KRISTEN WELKER:
– threat to withhold military aid if Israel does invade Rafah. But let me ask you this question: why shouldn't Israel's war against Hamas proceed in a more precise way with a clear plan to mitigate civilian deaths in Gaza?
l
SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM:
Well, I think it's impossible to mitigate civilian deaths in Gaza as long as Hamas uses their own population as human shields. I've never seen in the history of warfare such blatant efforts by an enemy, Hamas, to put civilians at risk. And the last thing you want to do is reward this behavior. They've put weapons in mosques. They fire artillery rounds from apartment buildings. They put command centers under hospitals to maximize civilian casualties, as Israel tries to destroy the terrorist group. You don't want to reward this by restricting weapons to the victim of their attack. But let me just say this: this is Mother's Day. Happy Mother's Day. But this is a tough time for the world. What Senator Sanders said, "Not another nickel of military aid to the United States," is the most dangerous, irresponsible statement in the history of the U.S. relationship. This is not Vietnam. Israel is in a fight for their lives. Hamas says they will do it again and again and again. They're dedicated to the destruction of the Jewish state, not helping the Palestinian people. Iran, the great Satan, vows to destroy Israel, so does Hezbollah. Israel is surrounded by forces, terrorist groups, that want to destroy the Jewish state, not help the Palestinians. This is 9/11 and Pearl Harbor all rolled into one. To abandon Israel under these circumstances would be outrageous. It would be dangerous. And Republicans are going to fight back against Bernie Sanders and the Squad.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Senator, let me just push you a little bit, though, because of course the United States has provided Israel with tens of thousands of bombs and missiles, just to prove -- some $14 billion in military aid last month. So the United States, even the IDF has said, has given it an extraordinary amount of support. I want to ask you, though, do you think Israel is in any way prepared to listen to, to work with President Biden? And is he trustworthy? And let me ask it this way: in a survey this week, more than half of Israelis said they thought Prime Minister Netanyahu's chief consideration was his own political survival. You've said you trust Israel more than the U.S. Defense Secretary. But why should Americans –
SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM:
That I do.
KRISTEN WELKER:
– trust Netanyahu to put the United States’ interests first?
SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM:
Americans should be all in and helping Israel against an existential threat. The one thing Israel and America has in common: Hamas would attack us if they could, Iran is the largest state sponsor of terrorism that shouts “Death to America” and Hezbollah's in the same camp. I've never heard anybody in Israel chant “Death to America.” The people Israel is fighting are bent on destroying all of the Jews. This is Holocaust remembrance month, for God's sakes. We should unequivocally support Israel. Yes, work with them to limit civilian casualties. They want to do that. I know they do. They have a whole battalion dedicated to that. But this idea of withholding weapons to Israel is rewarding the tactics of Hamas to put civilians at risk. Here's my statement to the administration: Sit down with Israel, keep the weapons flowing and work out a plan, if you can, that gets us all to where we need to be. I talked with Israel this morning. They are discussing, with the Biden administration, a way forward. I am somewhat hopeful we can jump over this impasse, but do not let Bernie Sanders run this war. Bernie Sanders and the Squad are insane when it comes to how to defend Israel. He just said on national television “cut off every nickel of military aid” to the Jewish state who's being threatened with oblivion. Shut these people down. This decision was political. He's trying to appease the radical left, Biden is.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Senator, just to be clear, the administration's position is not to cut off every nickel. And I guess the question is, why does Israel need the most massive bombs that can potentially level an entire block in order to wage this war? Why can't it be more precise?
SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM:
Listen, you know, here's what I would say about fighting an enemy who wants to kill you and your family. Why did we drop two bombs – nuclear bombs – on Hiroshima and Nagasaki? To end a war that we couldn't afford to lose. You don't understand apparently what Israel is facing. They're facing three groups. Iran, who has received $80 billion in aid. When Trump left office they were exporting 300 barrels of oil a day. Now they're at 1.3 million a day. They've been enriched by Biden. They're taking that money to kill all the Jews. So when we were faced with destruction as a nation after Pearl Harbor, fighting the Germans and the Japanese, we decided to end the war by bombing Hiroshima and Nagasaki with nuclear weapons. That was the right decision. Give Israel the bombs they need to end the war they can't afford to lose and work with them to minimize casualties.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Senator, military officials would argue that there has been so much technology since those bombs were dropped that for that very reason that is why Israel and other developed countries can be more precise. But let me ask it this way because President Biden is not the first president to use arms shipments to try to influence Israeli policy. As you know, former President Ronald Reagan on multiple occasions withheld weapons to impact Israel's military actions. Did President Reagan show that using U.S. military aid as leverage can actually be an effective way to rein in and impact Israel's policy?
SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM:
When you're telling the world you're going to restrict weapons delivery to the Jewish state who is fighting a three-front war for their survival, it emboldens Iran, it emboldens Hamas. Sinwar is probably juiced up on the idea there's daylight between the United States and Israel. The hostage deal is harder. This is the worst decision in the history of the U.S./Israel relationship, to deny weapons at a time the Jewish state could be destroyed. So here's what I would say. There is some hope we can get over this. Nonnegotiable, the destruction of Hamas. Nobody in Israel will allow Hamas to be standing militarily or politically when this is over. How we get there is subject to negotiation. My problem is not with the weapons that Israel is using. My problem is with the tactics Hamas is using. And the idea that America would not send a nickel of aid, echoed by a United States senator when all the Jews are trying to be killed by radical Islamic groups tells us where we are at as a nation. The Republican Party is with Israel without apology.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Well, historians would say, "Why is it okay for Reagan to do it and not President Biden?" But let me ask you about –
SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM:
Well, why's it okay –
KRISTEN WELKER:
– the big deal –
SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM:
– well, can I say this? Why is it okay for America to drop two nuclear bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki to end their existential threat war? Why was it okay for us to do that? I thought it was okay. To Israel, do whatever you have to do to survive as a Jewish state.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Senator, again, military officials say –
SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM:
Whatever you –
KRISTEN WELKER:
– the technology –
SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM:
– have to do –
KRISTEN WELKER:
– has changed. But let me ask you about how all –
SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM:
Yeah, these –
KRISTEN WELKER:
– of this could impact –
SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM:
– military officials that you're talking about –
KRISTEN WELKER:
Let me ask you something –
SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM:
– are full of crap.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Let me ask you something that I know you care a lot about and that is the Saudi normalization deal.
SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM:
Yes.
KRISTEN WELKER:
How would a ground invasion into Rafah impact what you believe is critical: getting a deal for normalization in the region with Saudi Arabia?
SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM:
Really good question. Number one, I want to keep pursuing this because you asked Tony a good question: “What happens the day after?” To my friends in Israel, what happens the day after? To Tony, what happens the day after? I want the Arab world, the UAE and Saudi Arabia to come in and give the Palestinian people hope once we destroy Hamas. I want normalization between Saudi Arabia and Israel, and that's the worst nightmare for Iran. That's why October 7th, I think, happened. Here's what's happening. When you deny Israel weapons, the Saudis are beginning to wonder, "Are we a good ally? Should I sign up to this? Will they turn on me if I get in a conflict?" So I think the biggest threat to the deal is to use Rafah invasion – the deal as a negotiating tool to back Israel off. I am still going to pursue the deal. I hope we can get this issue of the weapons transfers behind us and we can get back on setting the conditions where we can normalize between Saudi Arabia and Israel and as part of that have a new Palestinian opportunity where they'll have a better life when the Arabs help them rebuild Gaza and the West Bank with a new governing structure. I'm not giving up on that. I've just never been more worried about the signals we're sending to our enemies than I am right now. What we're doing to Israel is unconscionable, and it needs to stop. We need to be with Israel without apology.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Very quickly, Senator, before I let you go, a quick question about 2024. Will you accept the results of the 2024 election no matter who wins?
SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM:
Yeah, I'll accept them if I think, you know, there's no massive cheating. I accepted 2020. Here's what I would say. President Trump is poised to win. He said last night, when it comes to Israel “I'll have their back. I'll give them what they need.” Bernie Sanders is wrong about the polling here. Most Americans, 80%, side with Israel. The 20% unfortunately are in Congress and the State Department that side with Hamas. That's the problem with this war.
KRISTEN WELKER:
All right. Senator Sanders –
SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM:
Thank you –
KRISTEN WELKER:
– we are out of time. Senator Graham, I should say. You just invoked the other senator's name. We are out –
SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM:
We're often confused –
KRISTEN WELKER:
– of time.
SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM:
We're often confused. Thank you –
KRISTEN WELKER:
Senator Lindsey Graham –
SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM:
Thank you –
KRISTEN WELKER:
– thank you so much –
SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM:
Happy Mother's Day.
KRISTEN WELKER:
We're out of time. Thank you very much –
SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM:
Take care –
KRISTEN WELKER:
Appreciate your joining us –
SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM:
Thank you.
KRISTEN WELKER:
When we come back, Olympic swimmer Michael Phelps opens up about his struggles with depression.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Welcome back. May is mental health awareness month. And 23-time gold medalist Michael Phelps, the most decorated Olympian of all time, is opening up about his battle with depression. Phelps sat down with me for a Meet the Moment conversation, and talked about how he came to grips with his mental health struggles, and his advocacy on behalf of others.
[START TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
When did you first realize you were really struggling with depression?
MICHAEL PHELPS:
I would say probably 2004. 2004 was my first taste of post-Olympic depression. Coming off such a high, it’s basically you get to the edge of the cliff, and you're like, "Cool. Now what? Oh. I guess I've got to wait four more years to have the chance to do it again," right? And for those who don't have a successful Olympics, those four years can feel like an absolute eternity. So for me, 2004 was my first, 2008 was my second taste of post-Olympic depression, because coming off of that high after doing something you set out to do your whole entire life, my goal was to do something no one else had ever done before. And I did it by the age of 19, 20, or something.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Did you know it was depression? Or did you just think, "I'm feeling a little off"?
MICHAEL PHELPS:
I think at that point, I'll say as a male athlete, I could tell something was off. But I think I saw it as a sign of weakness. And if I shared anything about it, then it would give my competitors an edge. And I'm not trying to do that, right? I don't want to give my competitors an edge. I'm trying to be better than anybody, period, has ever been. So for me, I looked at it as weakness. So for me, I had to learn that vulnerability is a good thing. And it was scary at first. But I learned that vulnerability just means change. And for me, it was a great change.
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
If you or someone you know is struggling or in crisis, help is available. Call or text 988, or chat at 988lifeline.org. You can see much more of my conversation with Michael Phelps next Sunday right here on Meet the Press. And tune in to the Paris Olympics this summer on NBC and Peacock. When we come back, Donald Trump's former attorney Michael Cohen is expected to take the stand this week. The panel is next.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Welcome back. The panel is here: NBC News White House Correspondent Monica Alba; Jen Psaki, former White House press secretary, host of Inside with Jen Psaki, and author of the new book “Say More: Lessons from Work, the White House, and the World;” and Stephen Hayes, editor of The Dispatch. And, Jen, here we have your book with us.
JEN PSAKI:
Thank you.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Happy Mother's Day to you and Monica.
JEN PSAKI:
Happy Mother's Day.
KRISTEN WELKER:
We'll have a signing after the show. Monica start us off. Set the table here. Obviously this extraordinary warning by President Biden this week, saying that he would cut off military aid, had been obviously the focus of all of these conversations I've had this morning. What prompted him to make that warning this week? Was it the build up of political pressure? Was it his own frustration with Israel?
MONICA ALBA:
Well, White House officials will tell you that for decades this president makes foreign policy decisions based on national security, and not on politics. But in all my conversations with Biden advisors over the course of this consequential last week, they concede that it is impossible to ignore the political ramifications here. And they certainly talk about that in the context of this policy shift, of drawing that line, as you were discussing. And it is very notable, they point out, that Israel has the weapons it needs to go forward with this full-scale invasion into Rafah. So the president threatening to withhold that military aid is largely symbolic in many ways. And it is about a political messaging and signaling at this point in the war, and it comes against this larger backdrop of democratic divisions within the president's own party, as you just saw there in your interview with Senator Sanders. There were progressives who had been very critical of the president during this war, who now are praising this move, and there are others who really are not convinced, and who say this doesn't mean much at this point, given the mass number of civilian casualties, and the real lack of humanitarian aid getting into Gaza.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Yeah and that divide, Jen, I mean, it's so stark for the campaign, for those close to President Biden. You actually think he should've spoken out and done this sooner.
JEN PSAKI:
I think that and said that as it related to the diplomatic aspects. I mean, I worked for Secretary Kerry for a couple of years. 30 times to Israel. I've spent a lot of time in those negotiating rooms with Prime Minister Netanyahu. The politics of this I think are very hard to predict. There's no question there's a lot of activism on campus. There's antisemitism happening in the country. There is a lot of dynamics politically. The best thing they can do is reach a ceasefire. That's the best thing they can do. And I will say, just to add to what Monica said, if you watch what President Biden has been doing, what he's been doing is escalating the leverage here. He's been having tougher private conversations, some of those have been read out, with Prime Minister Netanyahu. This is the use of leverage. That's how diplomacy works. It's threatening, "If you don't change your behavior, this is what will happen." But it's not walking away from Israel's security. It is using leverage so that they don't go into a city that has 1,000,000 people. That is what they're trying to do right now.
STEPHEN HAYES:
But it may not be walking away from Israel's security, but it's undermining Israel's security. And President Biden said this himself back in October in the days after the attack. The more separation there is between the United States and Israel, the greater strength it gives to Hamas, to Hezbollah, and Israel's enemies and I think unfortunately both in word and deed what we saw from the Biden administration this week was this weakening. This has been a seven-month process. He came out very strong at the beginning. And now I think given the reasons that Senator Sanders has articulated, given the fact that there's this build up of domestic political pressure on Joe Biden, you're seeing him create this space in a way that I think is likely to intensify the civilian damage and lengthen the conflict overall.
JEN PSAKI:
I think this is the very wrong read.
STEPHEN HAYES:
How do you really feel?
JEN PSAKI:
The politics are important. They're also unpredictable. And they have to be present and watch that closely. There is also the potential for the Israeli Military to go into a city of 1,000,000 people where 300,000 people have already left. No one has been more supportive of the Israeli government, and recently to the frustration of many Democrats, than Joe Biden. But I think the alternative of not using leverage is the Israeli Military going in and absolutely leveling Rafah, killing hundreds of thousands of people. That won't destroy Hamas. Any intelligence official will tell you that. And there's no plan for the day after. That's not actually an effective, wise strategy diplomatically.
STEPHEN HAYES:
The Washington Post has a story overnight that the United States is withholding key intelligence on Hamas leadership in Rafah, and on the tunnels. How does withholding that intelligence make it more likely that Israel succeeds in meeting its military objectives?
KRISTEN WELKER:
And the debate is the crux of what you are both saying, which is what we're talking about. How do you wage this war? And Monica, it does come against the backdrop of this campaign that is ramping up. And, of course, the question is: Where does this go on the trail? How do we see it play out on the trail? You actually have some new reporting, not necessarily as it relates to the war in the Middle East, but as it relates to how the Biden campaign is trying to really intensify and galvanize its supporters against that backdrop of some of this diminishing support.
MONICA ALBA:
And that is the reminder here, that we are just months away from this critical election and the Biden campaign is trying to wage that fight, while dealing with this very serious challenge overseas. But in terms of that fundraising, for a long time, the Democrats, the DNC have had the cash advantage. That's about to look very different for Republicans with former President Trump and the RNC, now that he has clinched the nomination. They can fundraise differently. So that's why you're going to see the Biden team try to boost some of those fundraising efforts with some star power. They're going to be doing a big fundraiser with George Clooney, Julia Roberts, former President Obama in mid-June in Los Angeles. And there's also going to be a fundraiser with former President Bill Clinton, and former Secretary of State Hillary Clinton early this summer. They see a direct line from huge hauls from events like that to being able to build infrastructure, open offices, hire key staff, run ads in those critical battleground states, where, yes, some of those young voters, who are so disillusioned with what they're seeing right now with the president's handling of the war, could be critical. And it could make all the difference. So they're going to go all-in on that.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Stephen, of course the backdrop to the Biden campaign, kind of relying on this celebrity power, is we are seeing Donald Trump in court day after day. This week Michael Cohen takes the stand. This past week Stormy Daniels, the adult film star at the center of this hush money trial, was on the stand. He was in New Jersey overnight campaigning, taking aim at these legal battles. How do you see this all playing out moving forward? Do you think these legal battles will alienate some of those critical independent women, moderate voters that he needs to win?
STEPHEN HAYES:
Yeah. I think they likely will. If you look at the speech that he gave in Wildwood, New Jersey last night, he was giving a speech to his base. He was trying to rally his base. It was very clear that he was saying, "Look. This is Joe Biden's doing. This is the Justice Department. This is keeping me from campaigning. This is election interference." And that is a message that his base not only is receptive to, but rallies to. But I think there's a huge risk here. I mean, you're – you’re talking about a trial the involves hush money payments to a porn star that he had a fling with while he was cheating on his wife. That is not the thing you want in the news to appeal to those kinds of voters.
KRISTEN WELKER:
And, Jen, the critical voters are quite frankly those Nikki Haley voters. She's got a lot of buzz. Could she potentially be Trump's running mate? He says no, he's not considering her. But those are the voters that could make all the difference in this election, actually.
JEN PSAKI:
It's going to be a close race around six states. Everything makes a difference, to be clear. But to Monica's point, the Biden team feels they can already do the organizational stuff, but the Trump team is going to be a little behind on definitely the fundraising is going to close, as Monica has reported. Just to add to what Stephen pointed out, I mean there's been polls that suggest that if Trump is convicted, it could make a difference. I guess we'll see in terms of how people perceive it. But I think to suggest that - you have a woman on the stand, I recognize she's a former film star, she talked about blacking out when the former president of the United States was having sex with her. She talked about that. This is the same man who also thinks women shouldn't make choices about their own health care. Those things do impact people. Or to suggest that they don't I think may be underestimating the movement of women. We'll see. But I think the character aspect of this trial, that's what's interesting to me to see how that impacts people.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Yeah. And the polls just getting tighter. You guys, fantastic conversation. Really appreciate it. And, again, Happy Mother's Day. Hope you all have a great day.
MONICA ALBA:
Happy Mother's Day to you.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Thank you. Thank you. And that is all for today. Thank you so much for watching. Happy Mother's Day to all of you moms out there. We'll be back next week, because if it's Sunday, it's Meet the Press.